I couldn’t find reference to this on Spells8 - if I missed it, let me know and I will slink off into a corner and pout.
Pacal’s Wager posits that individuals essentially engage in a life-defining gamble regarding the belief in the existence of God (from wikipedia - “Pascal’s Wager”). He boiled down his wager into a graph that has caused a lot of discussion. If one accepts his graph, then a reasonable gambler would arrive at the conclusion that it is best to believe God exists. Here is his graph but I encourage reading the actual Wiki page because… there is certainly more to the story. The chart below is from Ocean Keltoi’s video (shown later)
If God exists then one should choose Belief to get infinite gain. If one believes God doesn’t exist (for whatever reason) then one should still choose to Believe since it assures infinite gain or at worst no loss.
Pacal’s wager has detractors even among Christian theologians. The most common critique is that if a non-believer insincerely chooses Belief to game the system, then an all knowing God would blow the foul whistle.
I restated this as briefly as possible hoping that many are familiar with this concept or at least see the logic.
Now… I recently went down a rabbit hole (again - Thanks @tracyS) after watching several of Ocean Keltoi’s videos about pantheism. He presents an interesting argument against the logic of the wager. Most I’ve read but his presentation skills are excellent. Whether you want to believe his spiritual path is irrelevant.
OK… I said all that so I could say: “You might like watching this video.” !!!
Pascal was talking about the Christian deity but just opening up the conversation makes my mind buzz. Yes, it gets a bit complicated - but it also seems fundamental in many ways. Belief systems (my obsession) are intriguing.
Oddly, my daily survival has taken such a turn over the past 5 years that I have not been thinking about any form of afterlife. If there is no life, there is also no afterlife simply because the thought process requires time and a sense of security which doesn’t exist in the midst of trauma.
Seeing the video reminded me that when I was forced to consider an afterlife, I felt more stress than when none was necessary or it was none of my business what would happen after life. I’ve actually led a better life as a heathen than I could have imagined growing up.
Resolving such things is not trivial. It is great you got through it.
One of the many critiques of Pascal’s Wager is that it assumes a specific afterlife that many beliefs don’t have. Without that particular Judeo-Christian afterlife the wager can be meaningless.
I’ve never actually heard of Pascal’s Wager, but I have had the same sort of thoughts and discussions. I’m going to look more into this and hopefully come back with more coherent thoughts.
Pascal never published it. It was found in his notes after he passed. That might be a clue that he didn’t feel it was as clear cut as it first seems. Upon release, it caused a flurry of discussion. I ran into it several times (years ago) when doing research for something else…
It isn’t a successful proposition but it causes a bit of discussion about why it isn’t. Ocean shot it down within the Heathen framework… and did very well IMO.
This! I’m only recently “converted” from christianity to paganism, and let me tell you, the relief I felt when I finally came to terms with dropping the church completely was insurmountable. I have never felt as much joy and freedom as I do now.
Ahh, that makes more sense why I’ve never heard of it then. I can absolutely see it causing quite a discussion among Christianity and other faiths, as well. I think Ocean did a good job of explaining it from a Heathen framework.
It’s an interesting concept to look at because yeah, if there’s no harm in believing to avoid a punishment after death then that’s a gamble most people would take. And then the question then is what happens if you pretend to believe in order to avoid punishment? I think Ocean brought that up, too. Is the God an omnipresent one who knows everything? If so, are they going to be upset with your pretend belief, or will they honor your attempt at belief?
Then you have people who know nothing about the Christian God. Can they then be punished in an afterlife for their ignorance if they were never exposed to the Christian God to begin with?
And then you have those of us who don’t even believe in an afterlife, let alone one that needs avoiding. Or those of us who believe in more than one God, or none at all.
It’s fun to think about the different possible answers to these questions and how Pascal may have responded to them.
@MeganB I think you covered the main arguments. What I’ve sometimes discovered is the need for some to take a nose dive into just one of the weaknesses. It produces some arguments that themselves are specious… and sometimes painfully long.
You would love Shaman Durek. He simplifies the whole process by simply stating Spirit/God are not negative, nor are they limited by human belief systems therefore none of this is relevant to spirit. Love him.
That’s very true! I know for sure these are not the kind of discussions I’d want to have with someone who was already opposed to paganism or anything other than monotheism, that’s for sure!
I’ll have to look him up I’m sure you’ve shared some of his stuff here. I think that’s a good way to explain the concept of Spirit.
Ocean is a master of this presentation method. I kept chuckling when the suitcase Jesus kept floating in when the topic was about how the ghosts of Christianity affected our thoughts.
I know for sure these are not the kind of discussions I’d want to have with someone who was already opposed to paganism or anything other than monotheism, that’s for sure!
I’m sure you’ve shared some of his stuff here. I think that’s a good way to explain the concept of Spirit.
