Can we talk about "Cultural Appropriation?"

[MeganB]

This has been a fantastic discussion so far on the topic of cultural appropriation! It can definitely be a touchy subject and I’m really happy to see everyone being so kind and thoughtful in their responses.

I wanted to give my thoughts on the subject as someone with beliefs that come from a living culture that has historically been through some rough stuff. I’m a Celtic Pagan, specifically focused on Irish practices. This culture is a living culture with practices that have continued from ancient times, though they may have changed form or look a bit different now. Celtic mythology has been bastardized, watered down, and taken out of context for profit for years - that is the common definition of cultural appropriation in a spiritual context.

I am an outsider to that culture. I was born in the US, and even though my ancestors come from Europe, that was hundreds of years ago and I’m pretty removed from the diaspora, too. Because of this, it is not up to me to decide what is respectful use of Irish culture or beliefs - it is up to them. The reason I say this is because of the historical significance of the beliefs and people. If they say that a specific practice can only be done properly if taught by a teacher in that field, then that’s what I take it as. I am not privy to the knowledge of the teacher, so if there is something that can only be taught, it is what it is

That is exactly what Traditional Wicca is, too. Traditional Wicca is a closed practice and I don’t think a lot of people understand that. It is an initiatory religion with mysteries that are only revealed after being taught and initiated.

There isn’t anything inherently wrong with gatekeeping when done properly. It should be there for the person’s protection and not as a way to create exclusivity. For example, I have a child. I am the gatekeeper for my child. I determine what is appropriate for her based on her age and skill level. If she wants to cook a meal, she needs to be able to do it safely. If I don’t feel she is capable of doing it safely or that she doesn’t have the necessary skills to understand what she’s doing, then she can’t cook a meal. The same is said for closed practices and initiatory traditions. It is up to the teachers and keepers of the knowledge to determine what their students or interested practitioners are capable of, what they understand, and how respectful they are. Of course, not everyone does this ethically, but in a perfect world, there would be no bias or prejudice.

Now, of course, information and practices can be shared and that happens all the time! The difference is the respect those practices and information are given. There is also a difference between my learning something from a native (to the culture) practitioner and my learning from someone removed from the culture. A lot can get lost in translation, and someone profiting from teaching things that aren’t part of their culture is unethical at best, in my opinion.

You also mentioned virtue signaling when people are adamant that they don’t use things such as white sage or other appropriative practices. My perspective as a creator is a bit different. Often, when I’m writing a blog post, doing a podcast, or creating a video, I have to mention specifically that I’m not using something from a closed practice. This isn’t virtue signaling or me trying to say that it’s wrong. This is me protecting myself from the hundreds of thousands of people online who will attack creators for cultural appropriation based only on the creator’s appearance.

It’s not my place to tell other people what is and isn’t appropriative because I don’t belong to a culture that has been historically ostracized, demonized, or genocided (as has happened with Native Americans). I do my best for myself personally, but what other practitioners do or don’t do is none of my business.

[Magdelina]

As a wiccan witch who’s husband is native American we say use the sage smudge your house at least the tradition is being passed on to those who respect it. It’s not stealing a cultural practice, it’s honoring it. Myself I am from Scotland primarily but use Norse runes when appropriate, etc. my practice is more towards eclectic than anything else. And as long as who I buy my sage from is a native American than I am supporting a tribe through my purchase.

Ok that’s my before coffee 2 cents. Blessed be coven brothers and sisters.

[Kasandra]

When it comes to adopting practices, rituals, etc., from a culture that is not my own, the question I ask myself is, how would the majority of people from that culture feel about this?

If the majority of them wouldn’t like my using something from their culture, then I steer clear of adopting it.

When I was in a college, there was an event on campus where a Native American couple were teaching the for the students about their tribe. Sadly, I’ve forgotten so much. It was about 14 years ago.

I was selected to showcase some of the accessories young women of the tribe wore. One of them was a buffalo headdress. I felt weird at the time because I have no Native American ancestry, to my knowledge, but I was given permission to wear it and it was in an educational setting.

[AileyGrey]

@tracyS

particular coloured candle, an old witch of a long line of Arabian witches said to me, “what are you fussing over, this colour, that colour, this crystal, that crystal. Your ancestors used whatever was around them. They learnt their craft from whoever they met, don’t close your mind. Look around, everything is right Infront of you.”

This might be the most poignant boy advice ever. I think we all needed to hear this. I also think it’s important to point out that our ancestors didn’t have the access and ease of accessing many many cultures and many many materials. They had what was around them, and they made use of what they could, we are super fortunate because the Internet and media and travel have given us access to information and culture beyond our wildest imagination. I was talking to an educational consultant about cultural appropriation in the classroom (you’ll have to forgive me education is life), and he said that as long as you really aren’t profiting from another culture, it isn’t really cultural appropriation. Cultural appropriation is using another person‘s culture for personal gain, primarily financial gain.

I think if our ancestors have had the same access as we do, now that they probably would have borrowed and shared freely, but that’s just my take on it

[shelly1]

(Trigger Warning: For anyone who is sensitive to cultural/political discussions, this is not intended to offend but to give voice to a matter which many non-BIPOC typically bite their tongue over and keep to themselves )

I hear ya’. In reference to the confusion about the topic, I wondered about it because there are many in this community…not nec. Spells8 community, but in the Witchy community who do make a point to share their desires to consecrate certain customs, cultures, dress, and all that as “off limits” for others to touch, take part in, incorporate, (sample/explore, if you will). I was reading the book, “The Altar Within,” by Juliet Diaz and she has a kind of uncomfortable section in the book which discusses her ire surrounding people who apparently paid to observe a gathering of various tribal performances and cultural displays. All of the performers and demonstrators were there by invite and were volunteering their time. When there, she said she discovered that attendees had paid “exorbitant fees” to attend, but it is not stated whether the monies were going to rent the venue, pay for latrine facilities, rent audio visual equipment, security services, electric, refreshment stands…what, but just that it “wasn’t going back into the Native American community” (as far as she knew).

Also…At this gathering, there were people who she said were not Native American wearing feathers in their hair. (Now I don’t know how she determined that any of those persons were in fact, not Native American. But she was not happy, and extolled the virtue of her personally supporting only BIPOC (Black, Indigenous, People of Color) small businesses herself. But when less POC-looking folks took enjoyment in whatever small businesses were selling at this event, she was not happy. (She didn’t say there were people or even kids, for that matter, who were running around batting their mouths with their hand hollering “LOO LOO LOO LOO LOO LOO LOO,” which, understandably would make anyone feel a little uncomfortable, I’m sure!)

I felt like somehow I was, in her mind, excluded from the right to relax and enjoy (vicariously) this Native American event because I have no provable Native American ancestry…and I was just the reader! And for no reason, I felt like I needed to be on the defensive. For what, I have no idea. I don’t know why I felt like this…but I had a very real, visceral feeling that there was “Tribalism” and “Othering” going on and I was kind of sad to see it, since I thought at the end of the day, we should not use a community which is about “coming together and realizing we are ultimately all one and ultimately come from Source” to categorize and exclude by monopolies on our history, our own or people we come from and would like to assume as our own. Have you ever noticed that?

Have you seen that there are several cultures with individuals which like to personally assume they themselves are taking up the fight to rectify past wrongs done to their ancestors and have an injustice that they and only they can understand and are the victims of? Everyone has trauma. Everyone. No one has a monopoly on pain. Either collectively or individually or both, we all feel it woven into our lives. And there is no prize for the people who “get to” claim they have been dealt more, except for that controversial, politically charged status of “Victimhood.”

Are there any Irish heritage folks who feel this way on St. Patty’s Day? The Irish. Yes. slaughtered, abused, raped, pillaged, tortured by everyone from Romans, to Pirates, to the British, to the Catholic Church. I don’t feel like I or any other people with provable Irish decent are the only ones with any absolute right to own the Irishness of any of the ancient or near history, misfortunes, culture, mythology, dress, song, dance, or joy of what it means to be Irish. I’m personally happy to see people excited about the Irish, (22% of my genetic makeup, roughly) and green and clovers, and beer, and pots of gold, rainbows…all the stereotypical things. It never even crossed my mind that others might view it as appropriation. Until lately, that is. LOL. All the same…And even when seen in context of incorporating those things into Spells or Witchy interest, I think reflecting on that particular culture is awesome!

I hope that makes sense in why I wondered about others’ take on the trend I’m seeing in various YouTube videos, books, and discussion posts regarding “Cultural Appropriation” and the Magick community at large. Maybe it’s just the flavor of the times, the trappings of the present young generation’s lens on the world. I’m not sure. This is why I brought it up. Lastly, I’d like to state again, with all due respect, my intent here is not to offend anyone.

[tracyS]

It’s healthy to express how you feel openly and safely, or the mind can take us down roads. I don’t engage much with social media, YouTube etc, just here on Spells8, and to date meeting up with people of all cultures offline, (I live in a very diverse city), I’ve not encountered any issues. People are alot nicer most of the time, off line.

As for Juliet Diaz, I had a chat with her about this online not long ago, and I explained as I’m a white northern European witch, am I excluded from her teachings, she was very lovely, and said her wisdom was for all cultures. I think the way she expressed that incident in Altar Within perhaps did not do her justice. (I’ve a copy of her book). She is a lovely lady, and is very passionate about freedom for all people, and everyone having the best opportunity in life, rather than what we have now, with globalization , destroying natural resources and inequality. She’s been horribly treated by some in the online community including large corporate businesses , who try to silence her, when she hilights the injustices today, and sometimes she can be fierce in her expression due to this, but her hearts in the right place. She’s currently on Substack.

I think you’re points are valid, sometimes we European witches are left shouldering the damage done by big businesses/rulers of the past but I’m sure this period too will pass. It’s seems to be mostly online and like I said, off line most people are nice about this (there’s always a few idiots but I just ignore those )

[Sivonnah]

It’s still confusing to me I guess because there’s not a definitive answer for this. It becomes convoluted when social media gets involved and it becomes a "popular " topic. What I mean is people just jumping in on the “movement” just to put their 2 cents in just to get more views and likes especially when they’re not educated on the topic. People sometimes these people over complicate these topics because of their ignorance. Just my 2 cents
I won’t pretend to be educated on it because I don’t really understand it. As I said before, in my practice, whatever I choose to do, is done with respect, not for exploitation and I feel that’s appropriate.

[shelly1]

For sure. I think I always have warm, open experiences interacting in person for sure. I didn’t know all that stuff about Juliet at all…I wanted to keep reading, even though that made me feel uncomfortable, because other things she had written felt empowering, which was refreshing and I tried to bear this in mind with the switchback curve in the road where she was talking about appropriation…But I pushed forward in the book, lol. I didn’t mean to add to the overall barrage of hate on her. I don’t hate her at all, but I did feel a little confusion about finding her both totally relatable while at the same time isolating. Is there an interview somewhere where she speaks about how she was horribly treated? I mean, what happened and why? I bought her book on recommendation from Youtube Poster “Ivy The Occultist.” I do enjoy the social media (Youtube) over television to see real folks discuss real world stuff and share their opinions. If they have opinions, it’s typically obvious from the outset…which I prefer to television’s implied messages overt or covert, and which are spawned from an agenda which is not clear to all or all the time, or not clear at all. And typically, the majority of the videos I’m watching are various persons speaking about Magick and Witchy things. I have been enjoying curating a favorites list of creators that offer insights into everything from resources (such as Juliet Diaz’s book in a top 10 recommended books for beginner witches), creating your own witches herbal garden, witchy tea blends and tea spells, various ways different cultures observe the witch calendar, and watching posts from different kinds of witches like Hedge Witch, Chaos Magician, House Witch, etc…And I really have been enjoying it. I love learning about all the ways to interact with the world around me, almost like I’m a kid again. It makes each day really fun! Juliet is fierce, a real warrior. She’s obviously been through trials by fire which have steeled her metal! And she’s a product of her developmental years. I suppose we all are. And there’s an example of how she IS actually relatable. Thank you for your thoughts on this and for your gentle delivery.

[shelly1]

Totally right. This is one of those tough things that has no answer, no real resolution, and the most I suppose we can say or do is to observe, acknowledge, discuss, ponder on it. And speaking of being educated on the topic, you know by now there’s gotta be entire courses, probably a minor or major in the topic of cultural appropriation! Whew! Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this topic, especially as gently as you do. I really appreciate reading your words!

[shelly1]

What a lovely post! Thank you for sharing that! <3

[tracyS]

@shelly1 You’re lovely, and brave. This needs to be raised and discussed in a balanced way.
Juliet Diaz is a force for change and sometimes misunderstood. I’ll let her tell her story. Here’s screenshot of what she sent me in an email. This version is from her site on Substack as there’s so much more.

A New Beginning

Here’s the overview:

[MeganB]

@shelly1

I’m personally happy to see people excited about the Irish, (22% of my genetic makeup, roughly) and green and clovers, and beer, and pots of gold, rainbows…all the stereotypical things. It never even crossed my mind that others might view it as appropriation

In reference to the specific St. Paddy’s Day celebrations, the types of things you’re mentioning here are uniquely American. As far as I’m aware, the celebrations with green rivers, clovers, beer, and the like were actually started in the US from the Irish Diaspora. Those traditions are now making their way back to Ireland during some St. Paddy’s Day festivals. This type of festival isn’t considered cultural appropriation, as far as I’m aware. However, the appropriation of Irish deities such as The Morrigan have watered down the cultural significance of Her aspects and put her in the box of “Maiden, Mother, Crone” which doesn’t exist in Irish culture and belief.

I have Irish ancestry, though many years back, and in my education on the culture and history of Ireland, I personally tend to err on the side of caution and respect. I can’t do the subject justice, but I can point to a reputable source of information from an Irish perspective - Lora O’Brien.

→ Question - Irish Ancestry and Cultural Appropriation? - Lora O'Brien - Irish Author & Guide

→ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oC3dUqEXaY

I think in regard to your feelings about what Juliet Diaz says, I understand that. It isn’t my place to decide who is “Native Enough” to celebrate, honor, or participate in those events, especially if we are solely basing our judgments on the appearance of those participating. If the event is open to the public, people are being respectful, and vendors are selling their wares, then I don’t see the problem It’s far more respectful to purchase Indigenous art from Indigenous people, so them being there and purchasing the art (or whatever else) from the Native people who created it is a form of cultural appreciation, not appropriation.

In any case, this is why I take the stance of listening to the cultures that the practices come from, understanding that “culture” is not a monolith and people within a culture may disagree, and being as respectful as I possibly can. There’s a vast difference between appropriation and appreciation, and I think online where tone and nuance seem to disappear, that line is heavily blurred.

@tracyS

It’s seems to be mostly online

This is important to remember, too. The online community is just a little blip in the wider group of witches and spiritual people. We hear the “big things” online because those are the things that make the most noise. In my personal experience, everyone offline has been very respectful and receptive to this conversation from people that have a stake in it, if that makes sense.

[shelly1]

OMG~~~ I LOVE THIS!!!

Thank you for the resources on Irish culture!!! I know, I know…caricatures and reductionist versions of Irish lore aren’t “authentic,” and I suppose I was trying to paint that even as that is the case, it never bothered me. But I can’t wait to delve more into the links you provided.

Also, some really excellent points you made that made me (big time) nod up and down while reading:

The notion of [quote=“MeganB, post:33, topic:47280”]
cultural appreciation, not appropriation.
[/quote]

~And~

@MeganB

understanding that “culture” is not a monolith and people within a culture may disagree

~I mean, people in singular FAMILIES disagree with varying views/perspectives/opinions, right? Yup!

~And~

@MeganB

In my personal experience, everyone offline has been very respectful and receptive to this conversation from people that have a stake in it, if that makes sense.

I wholly concur, friend. And I’m happy to see it. I think this is about the sense I’m getting from everyone else as well, that largely, it’s not as much of a hot bed of tension as certain media make out. And I’m glad to hear that others largely finding this not to be the case in their own communities. I don’t think most people get up in the morning with the intention to be ugly and disrespectful to other cultures as a matter of course. I certainly hope that’s not the case. That’s not how I was raised, even as my grandmother obviously grew up in different “times.” I’d like to believe we are the right cohort of humans on the planet at this point in time to foster “APPRECIATION” of our differences as much as our similarities.

I saw a quote somewhere that said something like, “Do flowers in a garden compete to be the most beautiful, most lovely, most fragrant, most valuable, most prized? No, they simply bloom to their full potential!” And I think that’s what I’m striving to be, to bloom to my full potential in a classroom with other divine beings doing the same while we encourage each other and share lessons with one another. I love this! Thank you so much for your kind, thoughtful reply!!!

[MeganB]

@shelly1

Thank you so much for your kind, thoughtful reply!!!

Anytime! It’s a wonderful discussion and everyone has something worth sharing.

[tracyS]

@shelly1 Fabulous for starting this post lovely. This is how we learn and share. I’ve so enjoyed reading everyone’s view.

[MagnoliaMoon]

I agree @Magdelina. There are very few “purebreds” and even if you take religion out of the equation, there’s still a Whole Bunch of holidays, traditions and mixing of cultures. Yes to inclusion and if you want to set us straight on the “how’s and whys” of your customs - PLEASE teach us​:four_leaf_clover:

[tracyS]

I found this article. Not sure my views on it, but it’s an interesting angle.

Cultural appropriation: everything is culture and it’s all appropriated

My understanding of this article, is we need to bring people together, fix the deeper issues that divide us and embrace diversity, I think that’s what he’s trying to say.

[MeganB]

I think this paragraph here from the article really explains a lot of the issues with cultural appropriation conversations online (not saying that our conversation is this way, just the broader online talks)

“I don’t find there to be a sophisticated debate about cultural appropriation in the media,” British critic and writer Afua Hirsch told me. It’s less the act and more the ignorance behind it that is the issue. “I’m often asked to come on TV whenever a pop star wears cornrows and defend the idea that I would like to police their hairstyle. There is little interest in the broader picture of imperial racism and white supremacy that forms the context. So it ends up being a reductive conversation about whether it’s OK for white people to do something, which is not my business.”

A lot of people tend to miss the point of the cultural appropriation conversation - it’s usually not what a person is doing or wearing that’s the issue. It’s the ignorance or intention behind it.

As an example, many people would say it is cultural appropriation for a white woman to wear cornrows or have their hair braided in a traditional protective style worn by those of African descent. However, if that person made the effort to learn about the hairstyles, why they’re worn, and the history behind them (especially certain hairstyles worn by Black Americans during slavery), and then went to a person from that culture to have their hair done? That’s not appropriation. That’s appreciation and inclusion into the cultural activities by someone from the culture.

I had this conversation with my own child. She’s white yet many of her friends are black. She has seen the protective styles and the beauty in the braids of Black women. She has wanted her hair braided in those styles, too. We had a conversation about the braids, the history of hiding grains of rice in the braids and oral stories of braids being used as maps, and how her hair wasn’t suited to the styles at the time. She understands that for some Black people (because culture isn’t a monolith), their hair is a sacred part of their identity. She also understands that her hair texture isn’t necessarily suited to the styles that she wants. If and when she decides to have her hair styled in that way in the future, we would go to a Black salon and engage in cultural appreciation where we are allowed, if that makes sense.

That last bit of the quote is also super important for me → “…whether it’s OK for white people to do something, which is not my business.” I’m here as an observer, so to speak. I am part of the privileged. Some of my ancestors were colonizers and some of my ancestors fled starvation in Ireland during The Great Hunger in the 1700s. It is not my place to police the identity of others. It is not my place to tell people what they should and shouldn’t be doing in regard to culture. I believe it is my place to guide people toward education and good intentions instead of ignorance and disrespect, but that’s in regard to everything and not just culture.

I think the author of the article is right when they say the entire argument of cultural appropriation becomes reductionist, especially with the example of Adele. The internet looks at Adele and sees a white woman, right? So of course, she shouldn’t be wearing Bantu knots and a Jamaica bathing suit…right? But what people who aren’t familiar with the culture of London is that Adele literally grew up in the culture of the Carnival that she was celebrating, and that’s stated in the other article linked about Adele’s Bantu knot fiasco. All the internet saw was Adele’s white skin and Bantu knots, which according to them, completely negated the fact that the Jamaican community was rallying behind Adele because she wasn’t appropriating their culture. She was taking part in a Carnival meant to appreciate Caribbean culture – appropriation versus appreciation makes all the difference, in my opinion.

Thank you for sharing the article, @tracyS – it was a good read!

[Sivonnah]

I’ve said this before, it’s so confusing to me! I agree that researching the culture and their practices is important.
I think this issue has become so convoluted, that it’s become hard to decifer what is or isn’t cultural appropriation.
The one thing that sticks out to me is engaging in these practices for monetary gain. It does bother me a lot that people do that.
One word that often comes up is smudge. I just don’t use that word. I say smoke cleanse, whether that’s right or wrong I don’t know.
I just try to be respectful and understand the significance of these practices.
And now my thoughts wander: what about Halloween costumes? We’ve “stolen” other cultures’ practices since the beginning of time. I don’t know if this is true. I’m just questioning in general.
Anyway, I will continue to try to understand, respect and honor other cultures in all aspects, not just in regards to cultural appropriation.

[tracyS]

@Sivonnah To be honest, just my view, but if the gods thought we were being insincere, I’m pretty sure they’d say something. As long as my motive is true, I will honour the gods that ask me to honour them, and when I need adjustment I’m sure they’ll send someone to guide me.

I remember my Aunty said, if we use our gifts for bad profit, the gods will take them away.