🦃 Pondering Thanksgiving, Harvest Festivals, and the Wheel of the Year

[BryWisteria]

Merry meet!

Want to join me on a ramble into a rabbit hole this morning?

I was talking with my (European) partner who said something along the lines that the Canadians had Thanksgiving right. I (American) had to stop and think on it for a minute. But the more I pondered on it, the more it makes sense - Canadian Thanksgiving takes places in early October. That’s much closer to the autumn equinox and the harvest season according to the nature-based pagan Wheel of the Year.

Free Wheel of the Year Printable Page from Spells

Here in late November between Samhain and Yule, we’re in a season of darkness, quiet, and waiting. It’s a time for the Earth to slip into shadow, a thin Veil, and peaceful waiting for the light to return - at least in how I sense the energies. Looking at it this way, yeah, I can see how American Thanksgiving may have missed its season. Heck, even Canadian Thanksgiving at three~ weeks after the solstice may be a bit late to catch the heart of the harvest season.

So why is American Thanksgiving held so late in the season? I did a quick search and found the following in the Britannica:

On October 3, 1863, during the Civil War, Lincoln proclaimed a national day of thanksgiving to be celebrated on Thursday, November 26.

The holiday was annually proclaimed by every president thereafter, and the date chosen, with few exceptions, was the last Thursday in November. Pres. Franklin D. Roosevelt, however, attempted to extend the Christmas shopping season, which generally begins with the Thanksgiving holiday, and to boost the economy by moving the date back a week, to the third week in November. But not all states complied, and, after a joint resolution of Congress in 1941, Roosevelt issued a proclamation in 1942 designating the fourth Thursday in November (which is not always the last Thursday) as Thanksgiving Day.

From The Britannica: Thanksgiving Day

And for Canada:

In 1879 Parliament established a national Thanksgiving Day on November 6; the date has varied over the years. Since 1957 Thanksgiving Day has been celebrated in Canada on the second Monday in October.

From The Britannica: Thanksgiving Day

That doesn’t give much to go on, other than it being decided by the government and was at least partially influenced by other holidays (Christmas) in the US.

So what do you think? Do feel American Thanksgiving is well-timed, perhaps bringing fun to an otherwise darker season, or do you think it would make more sense among the harvest celebrations closer to the autumn equinox?

Just a little brain worm to get the mind going this morning

Have a blessed day!

[Eira_of_the_Living_Hearth]

I would prefer it more towards the autumn equinox. It just makes more sense to me, and it would have more meaning, I think. It really goes hand in hand with Samhain. Celebrating those who have passed on and giving thanks. American holidays have become too commercialized.

[Amethyst]

I kind of wish it was earlier, at least nowadays. It gets lost anymore in the rev up to the Holiday Season.

[KylaD]

I’m Canadian and always thought it was odd for the US to celebrate so late. I do really love it October!

[WilaEve]

I feel like i could understand it on both ends. If it is closer to October, it would make sense because we associate pumpkins for both, but I think of it as you use the remains from carving a pumpkin to make a pumpkin pie. We also pick many of our vegetables around that time. It also makes sense with it being closer to December and Christmas because after you give thanks, you go out and buy the people who you thanked presents as a physical representation of the love you have for them. Maybe I’m stupid, but I think you could a decent argument for both.

[KylaD]

I actually really like your thoughts! Makes total sense!!!

[georgia]

I was shopping for a unicorn tee shirt for Christmas, when I found a messy thing that reveals perfectly how I feel. It said “Happy Hallow-thank-mas.” This season/ set of holidays seems to run together until there is no room to breathe. It would be nice to pull Thanksgiving back a couple months, but the social ramifications are astounding. Celebrating earlier would help with weather issues and travel; and travellers would have a little extra time to earn a bit more cash in between so more money could be spent at Christmas. It may also ease some of the stress of the sudden group of holidays when the doldrums of winter have little to brighten the time. I don’t know about anyone else, but I get addicted to the partying and don’t want it to end so abruptly at New Year’s.

@WilaEve

I think of it as you use the remains from carving a pumpkin to make a pumpkin pie. We also pick many of our vegetables around that time. It also makes sense with it being closer to December and Christmas because after you give thanks, you go out and buy the people who you thanked presents as a physical representation of the love you have for them.

Good point.

[Feathertip]

What a great discussion!

While commercialism has definitely crept in to become the all-consuming, attention-grabbing mob fest of the present day, I was inspired to do a little digging into those earlier years.

Both Canada and the continental United States are in North America, as we know. I’m thinking about the wide agricultural diversity in our shared continent. I was curious to see if those initial Thanksgiving dates were in line with the decidedly more agricultural communities of those times than what we know now.

The Thanksgiving dates seem to align with the general first dates of a potential hard frost, which could certainly kill or damage the last of the fall/cold-weather crops. Ideally, harvests will happen before the hard frost, but still allow for cold-hardy crops like spinach and root vegetables to stay in ground a bit longer.

From my online searches, in some parts of Canada (itself a huge swath of land), the first hard frost occurs in early to mid-October.

The further south you go in North America (getting into the US), the last harvest may extend into early December, or even beyond as hard frosts in the deep South are less predictable.

I’d like to think in these more agrarian (read: Pagan) terms, that the Thanksgiving holiday was created to align with our mutual societies of those times, and honor the hard work of our family farms and communities.

All this to say, I’m basically okay with how these dates are laid out. Once we’re past Thanksgiving, we are headed into more darkness towards Yule and really withdrawing from the land, while it rests in the cold.

Thanks for opening this discussion, @BryWisteria! I never gave it much thought before.

[Greenbriar]

Great minds think alike @Feathertip. That is how I have always thought about it.

Living down here in Texas the growing reason is much longer and harvesting extends much later than it does up in Canada so it would make sense that the American Thanksgiving is later.

And, coming from England where they don’t have Thanksgiving at all, I’ll take all the holidays I can get

[BryWisteria]

@Eira_of_the_Living_Hearth

It just makes more sense to me, and it would have more meaning, I think.

I’m with you - the deeper I explore my Craft’s connection with the natural world, the more I want my day-to-day life to be connected to the seasons and the present moment. So it makes sense to want the holidays to align with current energies too, I think!

@Amethyst

It gets lost anymore in the rev up to the Holiday Season.

I agree completely. I saw Christmas decorations going up in stores before Halloween. It kind of drowns out the other holidays, you know? Things do tend to get lost in the rush to the most commercialized parts of the holiday season.

@KylaD

I do really love it October!

It sounds like October is a happy medium! And the weather is still nice and the days are a bit longer - makes it easier to celebrate!

@WilaEve

Maybe I’m stupid, but I think you could a decent argument for both.

I don’t think it’s stupid it all - you make some really good points! I especially love what you said about carving the pumpkin and using the insides to make pumpkin pie, that’s both fun and resourceful As for having it later in the year for present purposes, that’s also a good point. After all, Black Friday - perhaps the biggest shopping day of the whole year in the US - is the day after Thanksgiving!

@KylaD

I actually really like your thoughts!

Right!? Lots of interesting things to ponder!

@georgia

It said “Happy Hallow-thank-mas.” This season/ set of holidays seems to run together until there is no room to breathe.

That t-shirt you found really sums it up well! I agree, the October-November-December trio of big holidays does blend together. And you make some very good points about both the physical and emotional strains later in the holiday season. Perhaps spreading the holidays out might help ease the stress and financial burdens, as you said.

As for the partying, you’re a strong soul! My excitement peaks at Halloween, dips over November, then comes back a wee bit for Yule, and then plummets into exhaustion. The holidays always do a number on this introvert

@Feathertip

I was curious to see if those initial Thanksgiving dates were in line with the decidedly more agricultural communities of those times

That’s a brilliant point - thank you for doing the deep dive! I always love some good research and I gobbled this up like a feast You’re right on about the frosts, I didn’t consider that. I can see how the current dates in both the US and Canada could align with the “final call” for farmers before a season of rest. Here in the northeast US the Canadian date feels closer to the season’s end than November, but the November date probably covers much more of the US farming territory. Considering how big the US is, it would be tough to draw the line across so many different climates!

You’ve given me more delicious points to chew on about this, Feathertip - thank you so much!

@Greenbriar

the growing reason is much longer and harvesting extends much later than it does up in Canada so it would make sense that the American Thanksgiving is later.

You and Feathertip both make great points about the growing season. It does make sense that a harvest date for the whole country acknowledge the various climates! Perhaps the November date works best as the middle ground for everyone

@Greenbriar

coming from England where they don’t have Thanksgiving at all, I’ll take all the holidays I can get

Forgive me as I’m not very familiar with holidays in England - is there perhaps a similar feast or festival at some point in the year? Or are the big feasting holidays saved for December?

[Artemisia]

While I do like it being in the darker months of the year, I personally dislike that it’s 4 weeks before Christmas. It’s too much holiday pressure and excessive food in a short span for me.

[Feathertip]

@Greenbriar

Great minds think alike @Feathertip. That is how I have always thought about it.

haha, we seem to do that a lot!

@Greenbriar

And, coming from England where they don’t have Thanksgiving at all, I’ll take all the holidays I can get

Absolutely. I’m curious along with @BryWisteria if England has anything similar to Thanksgiving. I can’t help but think there are still some kind of Pagan ties to the end of the harvest season…?

@BryWisteria

You’ve given me more delicious points to chew on about this, Feathertip - thank you so much!

You’re welcome - glad you found the research of interest!

[Greenbriar]

@BryWisteria

Forgive me as I’m not very familiar with holidays in England - is there perhaps a similar feast or festival at some point in the year?

Our village church always had a harvest festival every year, as I’m sure many villages do, but it’s not a holiday like Thanksgiving or Christmas.

Here’s a list of the official bank holidays in the UK

• New Year’s Day: January 1st each year
• Good Friday: in March or April } Makes a 4-day Easter weekend
• Easter Monday: in March or April }
• Early May bank holiday: first Monday of May - known as “May Day”
• Spring bank holiday: last Monday of May - same as Memorial Day
• Summer bank holiday: last Monday of August - aligns to Labor Day
• Christmas Day: December 25th
• Boxing Day: December 26th

[Greenbriar]

@Feathertip

I can’t help but think there are still some kind of Pagan ties to the end of the harvest season…?

I’m sure there are a lot pagan harvest festivals around the UK, in towns like Glastonbury, Avebury, St. Ives etc. However, I left the UK long before I had any interest in them so sadly never attended any of them.

[Eira_of_the_Living_Hearth]

@BryWisteria

the deeper I explore my Craft’s connection with the natural world, the more I want my day-to-day life to be connected to the seasons and the present moment.

My ancestors were very involved in Hearthcraft and I would really like to continue that natural way of practicing where your magick is in the everyday doing and not so ritualistic. I’m not much of a pomp and circumstance kind of woman lol. I find a lot of comfort and meaning in the simple things and the natural flow of life! I want to incorporate more of the Sabbats in my yearly routine and less of the commercialized holidays.

[Amethyst]

@BryWisteria

Things do tend to get lost in the rush to the most commercialized parts of the holiday season.

I watched this whole thing on YouTube about how things really aren’t as good as it was back in the 80’s and 90’s. That it’s not just our imagination. How stores opening up earlier and earlier to get money is making things go wacky, along with other things. So it’s not just in your mind!

[BryWisteria]

@Artemisia

It’s too much holiday pressure and excessive food in a short span

I empathize with this, the holiday season does have a reputation for being the most stressful time of the year! And it sure is a lot of feasting all at once. I imagine the gyms embrace it wholeheartedly since it so often tends to lead to new year’s goals of losing weight. I know I tend to overindulge in goodies - I can’t resist the Halloween candy, Thanksgiving pies, Christmas cookies, and New Year’s goodies!

@Feathertip

glad you found the research of interest!

@Greenbriar

Our village church always had a harvest festival every year, as I’m sure many villages do, but it’s not a holiday like Thanksgiving or Christmas.

How nice! The more I learn about the “little” or local celebrations (aka unofficial holidays), the more valuable I find them. Hosting a local harvest festival seems like a lovely way to get in touch with both the nearby land and the food currently in season.

Thank you for sharing about the English holidays, but official and local!

@Greenbriar

I left the UK long before I had any interest in them so sadly never attended any of them.

Maybe someday, as spiritual practices like paganism and cultural practices like shopping local gain popularity, we’ll be blessed with more local festivals and celebrations here in the US. I have a hope!

@Eira_of_the_Living_Hearth

I find a lot of comfort and meaning in the simple things and the natural flow of life!

Beautifully said! It sounds like a very meaningful practice that is honoring your ancestors - I’m sure they are smiling upon you from the Beyond

@Amethyst

How stores opening up earlier and earlier to get money is making things go wacky

I agree, it certainly seems like the stores push holiday merch earlier and earlier, and more and more of it. Don’t get me wrong, a little is fun, and goodness knows I love finding fun treasures! But when the commercial “holiday season” becomes more than half the year, it makes me feel it’s being stretched so thin that the actual spirit of the holiday is being buried beneath the price tags. And it can be hard to feel good about the holidays when it feels like they’re being taken advantage of.

I think this also might contribute to how Thanksgiving can feel lost between Halloween and Christmas - it’s not as commercialized, so the stores seem to jump right to the big moneymaker.

[Amethyst]

@BryWisteria

I think this also might contribute to how Thanksgiving can feel lost between Halloween and Christmas - it’s not as commercialized, so the stores seem to jump right to the big moneymaker.

Yeah, it’s like we rush so much, we don’t take time for what’s important. Everyone has to go to ten different parties, and there’s the Secret Santa at work, and you’re juggling your kids’ schedule and more. It’s crazy!

Y’all, just be a hermit for the holidays. Stay in the house with your loved ones and play a board game that’s not Monopoly or watch a holiday movie. You might not save twenty dollars on that big screen TV, but you’ll save yourself the aggravation. Sheesh!

[Feathertip]

@Amethyst

Y’all, just be a hermit for the holidays. Stay in the house with your loved ones

I found this in the Meme thread - it suits here:

We can all be house goblins!

[Amethyst]

Yes! I am now a House Goblin! What do Goblins live in? Caves or just anywhere? I mean, I know a Hobbit has a Hobbit Hole. That’s what I usually call my apartment. But it doesn’t sound right, having a House Goblin in a Hobbit Hole!

Thanks for sharing that!